egg changed the topic of #principia to: Logs: https://esper.irclog.whitequark.org/principia | <scott_manley> anyone that doubts the wisdom of retrograde bop needs to get the hell out | https://xkcd.com/323/ | <egg> calculating the influence of lamont on Pluto is a bit silly…
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Is 6km/s realistic for LEO to LMO transfer at the optimal window?
<queqiao--> <A​l₂​Me​₆> Via Hohmann transfer? Sounds about right.
<queqiao--> <A​l₂​Me​₆> There's a reason that's rarely done IRL.
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> How else would you do it?
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Reading the guide this is the only way it was ever explained
<queqiao--> <A​l₂​Me​₆> Venus gravity assists. It's quite difficult to set up admittedly.
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Venus is also like a 4-6km/s burn 😭
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> At least last I tried also using the optimal transfer window
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> My budget is around 3.7km/s
<queqiao--> <A​l₂​Me​₆> Unless your name is Reach that won't get you much of anywhere...
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> I was putting together Mariner 1 using BDB and RO configs
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Maybe I put it together wrong hmm
<queqiao--> Reply to "S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y: Is 6km/s realistic for LEO to LMO transfer at the optimal window? I feel like that's a lot"
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Your manoeuvre frame is wrong. Set it to ECI. Mars transfer should be no more than 4k
<queqiao--> <I​SO​> If you are really stuck for dv you could try an earth gravity assist with the right phasing
<queqiao--> Reply to "S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y: Is 6km/s realistic for LEO to LMO transfer at the optimal window? I feel like that's a lot"
<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> 6.3k seems very high just to flyby Mars, should be a little over 4k iirc.
<queqiao--> Reply to "k​uz​in​at​0r​: Your manoeuvre frame is wrong. Set it to ECI. Mars transfer should be no more than 4k"
<queqiao--> <e​zs​na​ck​ -​ b​oo​st​er​ t​an​k ​ap​ol​og​is​t> This feature needs to be changed asap lol
<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> Why? There are valid uses for other frames, this is just user error.
<queqiao--> <N​az​fi​b> On the one hand, it's weirdly unintuitive if the default manoeuvre directions don't correspond to the trajectory you're looking at (e.g. tangent is not along the trajectory);
<queqiao--> <N​az​fi​b> on the other hand, once you have some experience with manoeuvre planning, you learn that the body-centered inertial manoeuvre frame of the largest gravitational source at your current position is often the one you want, especially for large manoeuvres.
<queqiao--> Reply to "B​ut​ch​er​: Why? There are valid uses for other frames, this is just user error."
<queqiao--> <e​zs​na​ck​ -​ b​oo​st​er​ t​an​k ​ap​ol​og​is​t> Yea im not saying to remove it, i have an gh issue open about it, just make it default to the soi you are orbiting inertial
<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> Oh I see, so on creation it defaults to whatever body you're in the hill sphere of instead of whatever your plotting frame is. 🤔
<queqiao--> Reply to "B​ut​ch​er​: Oh I see, so on creation it defaults to whatever body you're in the hill sphere of instea..."
<queqiao--> <e​zs​na​ck​ -​ b​oo​st​er​ t​an​k ​ap​ol​og​is​t> no the opposite, and it should be like what you said
<queqiao--> <e​zs​na​ck​ -​ b​oo​st​er​ t​an​k ​ap​ol​og​is​t> because that is alot more alike to stock system, which people is used to, and they apparently refuse to read the concepts page or understand it :V
<queqiao--> <e​zs​na​ck​ -​ b​oo​st​er​ t​an​k ​ap​ol​og​is​t> so every single time you see someone struggling with an interplanetary transfer its because they are using target-sun-orbit manoeuvreing frame while plotting the ejection in LEO
<queqiao--> <e​gg​> Probably based on orbit detection rather than the hill sphere.
<queqiao--> <s​ic​he​lg​ai​ta​> We'll assign an engineer to look into this issue.
<queqiao--> <C​la​ye​l> make sure to allot them overtime
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> i get this weird bug with prinicpia where uranus is orbiting jupiter and saturn is in the asteroid belt in an inclined orbit, idk how the heck this happen https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/480397772248580098/1418614534016340110/Screenshot_2025-09-19_225807.png?ex=68cec33d&is=68cd71bd&hm=b9a247c9904881360b912566e612758ca5604dfaaff4208036bc3f8b2df9b3c2&
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> is it safe to just remove prinicipa at this point?
<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> Posts screenshot.
<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> Principia window not visible.
<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> 🤨
<queqiao--> Reply to "B​ut​ch​er​: Posts screenshot. Principia window not visible. 🤨"
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> i have tried uninstalling and reinstalling prinicpia but i get the exact same outcome
<queqiao--> Reply to "P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​: i get this weird bug with prinicpia where uranus is orbiting jupiter and saturn is in the..."
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Why do you think Saturn is in the asteroid belt? Also, make the plotting time longer so all the planets have their orbits complete
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Increase steps and tolerance(in flight)
<queqiao--> Reply to "k​uz​in​at​0r​: Why do you think Saturn is in the asteroid belt? Also, make the plotting time longer so a..."
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> it's literally orbiting next to ceres and vesta, strange thing is anything within the orbit of ceres seems normal https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/480397772248580098/1418628476910702744/screenshot8.png?ex=68ced039&is=68cd7eb9&hm=b4e7e4277bf1c54737678ead1a4d89efd72524ebc1e0a67a1cc72618c0d0948d&
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> plus neptune, pluto and uranus were on escape trajetcories
<queqiao--> <N​az​fi​b> Does it happen in a new save? Have you made any changes to the solar system, adding/removing/modifying planets? Have you added/removed any other mods since starting the save?
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Can you post a screenshot with longer orbits predictions?
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Also, Ceres just can't not be bothered by Saturn being this close)
<queqiao--> Reply to "N​az​fi​b: Does it happen in a new save? Have you made any changes to the solar system, adding/remov..."
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> i actaully have another save in 1952 and that one seems normal, and for this save i have been using prinicpia since the start. i have not modified any planets and added/removed mods since
<queqiao--> Reply to "k​uz​in​at​0r​: Can you post a screenshot with longer orbits predictions?"
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Where's Jupiter?) and to be able to tweak the predictions you should fly something
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> I can't really help you, I'm just curious about what happened here)
<queqiao--> Reply to "k​uz​in​at​0r​: Where's Jupiter?) and to be able to tweak the predictions you should fly something"
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> idk where the other 3 major moons went
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Can you share the savefile?
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> ok i might have found the problem because originally this save was from 1.12.3 (with principia) but then i upgraded to 1.12.5 so i think principia might have just went haywire after that
<queqiao--> <P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​> turns out i just forgot that i had rss origins in my 1.12.3 version, copied that over to the 1.12.5 and it fixed it (:
<queqiao--> Reply to "k​uz​in​at​0r​: Your manoeuvre frame is wrong. Set it to ECI. Mars transfer should be no more than 4k"
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Why ECI?
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> I don’t have every frame memorized but the one I selected, MSO, says in the blurb that it’s optimal for transfers to/from Mars
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Wouldn’t that make MSO the most optimal to use?
<queqiao--> Reply to "S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y: Wouldn’t that make MSO the most optimal to use?"
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Plotting frame is how you display the universe. Manoeuvre frame is how you define directions. With some other frame your prograde direction is not what you expect it to be
<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> You usually want to eject largely tangent to your orbit, having the manoeuvre frame set to the orbit frame (e.g. ECI) helps with that
<queqiao--> Reply to "P​ro​xi​ma​ 2​42​6▵​: turns out i just forgot that i had rss origins in my 1.12.3 version, copied that over to ..."
<queqiao--> <C​la​ye​l> im surprised that you modified the solar system and didnt have a catastrophe error occur, that modified system is pretty cool actually (but probably unstable)
<queqiao--> <e​gg​> That was nonphysical, the in-game bodies got permuted. We should probably detect when there are fewer bodies in-game than expected (we crash when there are more, but if there are fewer we just render the ones we are asked about, and since it is by index, the result is nonsense if they are reordered).
<queqiao--> Reply to "k​uz​in​at​0r​: Plotting frame is how you display the universe. Manoeuvre frame is how you define directi..."
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> So I'm at ECI (Also going to use infinite fuel just for testing) and this is about right right? https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/480397772248580098/1418677941717434561/screenshot86.png?ex=68cefe4b&is=68cdaccb&hm=d841d8d875234f04a5e4a578b9745a49374da42ae53fc7cd817fddfd8c75db6e&
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Hard to really tell tbh
<queqiao--> Reply to "S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y: So I'm at ECI (Also going to use infinite fuel just for testing) and this is about right ..."
<queqiao--> <e​gg​> Don’t use ECI as your plotting frame, otherwise you don’t see anything useful.
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Okay I did make a quick switch to ECI for manuever, MSO for plotting
<queqiao--> Reply to "e​gg​: Don’t use ECI as your plotting frame, otherwise you don’t see anything useful."
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Could you explain to me what the practical use is for using ECI as the manuever frame?
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> The way it's described feels like it shouldn't be used for interplanetary stuff
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> "For perturbed Keplerian trajectories around Earth"
<queqiao--> <e​gg​> That tooltip is mostly about the use as a plotting frame.
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> So MSO as a plotting fram works just fine then?
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Because I am technically performing a transfer to/from Mars
<queqiao--> <e​gg​> Yes, that is what you want. ECI as a plotting frame is useless here.
<queqiao--> <e​gg​> (As you can see from the fact that the noodles on the screen are useless.)
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Well I just ended up with a 3.9km/s burn which I think is mostly correct
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Still not quite enough, I'll still need infinite fuel but I'm just messing around
<queqiao--> Reply to "S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y: Could you explain to me what the practical use is for using ECI as the manuever frame? Th..."
<queqiao--> <G​oF​or​PD​I ​(l​es​s ​dr​ag​=m​or​e ​fa​st​er​)> So like was said, plotting frame is entirely different from maneuver frame. You want MSO as the plotting frame so you can tune your flyby, but ECI as the maneuver frame so the prograde vector is from your Earth orbit not the MSO trajectory
<queqiao--> Reply to "G​oF​or​PD​I ​(l​es​s ​dr​ag​=m​or​e ​fa​st​er​): So like was said, plotting frame is entirely different from maneuver frame. You want MSO ..."
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> Okay I think I get the idea now :p
<queqiao--> <S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y> My only issue now is having a powerful enough PC to let me do precise maneuvers 😭
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<queqiao--> <B​ut​ch​er​> 3.9k sounds about right to Mars.
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<queqiao--> Reply to "S​tu​pi​d ​Ga​y ​Fu​rr​y: My only issue now is having a powerful enough PC to let me do precise maneuvers 😭"
<queqiao--> <k​uz​in​at​0r​> Once you have a close enough encounter just switch your plotting frame to Mars inertial. It'll reduce lag alot
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